evolt.org Workers of the Web, Evolt!

A news article would be better served without the opinionated rubbish. While the new Opera version is a huge leap forward from previous versions, I don't think it's anywhere near to measuring up to Mozilla yet, in anything but speed, which, although important, is not everything. Opera is a fine browser, but if you feel you have to continually take digs at Mozilla (while ignoring less standards complaint browsers) at least back up your digs with facts.

The confusing MDI and SDI modes have been merged into a Mozilla-like (but better) mix. It's better? How is it better? Why? This is exactly what I'm talking about. If you have to shove your opinions into a news article at least bloody-well back them up with something.

Small Screen rendering isn't just a stylesheet. There's more to it than that. If you read places like CNet you'll see that the technology is being used in other places too.

And even if it was just a style sheet, just because someone else can copy a feature doesn't mean that the original feature wasn't innovative. Opera actually did it. Just like created Mouse Gestures.

You know, I'm really tired of all these jabs back and forth between Opera-fanatics and Mozilla-fanatics. Get over it people. If the world had to wait for Mozilla without alternates like Opera, IE would have been much closer to 100% than it already is. Mozilla still does better on standards support. There are more plugins etc for Mozilla.

Let's have more energy spent on making the programs better, and less time spitting in each other's soup.

Tim, sorry if I came across as jabbing, what I was trying to do was point out that I thought the article was taking unnecessary jabs itself, especially without backing them up with anything. You will notice that I did say that I think Opera is a fine browser. Although I personally don't use it, I have no problems with it, especially not its newest incarnation. That said, I also think Mozilla is a fantastic browser, and if the author of this piece wants to continually belittle Mozilla he should back his opinions up with evidence.

Kevin, you can hype Opera all you want. Hype doesn't mean slandering other things however (and hell, if you're going to slander other browsers for not being standards compliant then why the hell choose to pick on Mozilla when there are other browsers around that linger much further behind?

You might not like the Mozilla Is The Most Standards Compliant And Best Browser And Mozilla Is Always Right And Every Other Browser Is Wrong idea as you put it, but for quite a while now Mozilla has been the most standards compliant browser around. As for people always considering it the best... where do you hang around? Sure a lot of people liek Mozilla the best. A lot of people like other browsers and consider them the best too. It's all a matter of taste, and none of it requires descent into slander.

You might feel that Opera's implementation being a "pure" implementation of MDI is better, but whenever I install Opera my first customisation is to switch to the SDI, whereas Mozilla's "impure" tabbed browsing I find extremely useful. I don't need windows that can be restored blah blah.. if I want windows with the dressing what's wrong with using real ones? If you felt you needed to cut out the explanation of why it was better because of length you should have taken out the dig too.

Again, I have no problems with Opera, it's just not to my taste. It's a fine browser, let it stand on its own merits instead of slandering another very good browser.

Sorry, I don't get this... is IE a company in your view, or is AOL a browser? I use my browser because I like my browser, not because of which company makes it. Anyone that doesn't use a piece of software because of who makes it is, in my opinion, a moron. you use software because it works the way you need or want it to.

Anyway, I'm going to stop commenting on this news story. I've given my views on why this news article is bad and yet some of the opera fanatics seem to think I hate the browser or something, no matter how many times I say I think it's a good one. Not much else I can do.

You will notice that I did say that I think Opera is a fine browser.

Yes, I did. You will notice that I did not say that Mozilla sucks. I didn't say that Mozilla is a fine browser, but I do think it is.

Hype doesn't mean slandering other things however

I don't think I slandered about Mozilla at all. I made two statements about how Opera was slightly better. I made no false statements, AFAICS. OK, maybe I had incorrect information when I assumed that most people think MDI is better.

and hell, if you're going to slander other browsers for not being standards compliant

I didn't say that Mozilla was not standards compliant. If you read between the lines, you will actually see much respect for the Gecko engine. Only once, I said that Opera had a lot of cases where standards support was far better. This does not mean that Mozilla's standards compliance sucks.

why the hell choose to pick on Mozilla when there are other browsers around that linger much further behind?

Because I think it is well known at evolt.org that IE's rendering engine is far behind. I was just trying to broaden some people's options beyond Mozilla. Once again, I did not disrespect Mozilla.

for quite a while now Mozilla has been the most standards compliant browser around.

Yes, and now there are two most standards compliant browsers around. I want to get this idea into people's heads.

but whenever I install Opera my first customisation is to switch to the SDI, whereas Mozilla's "impure" tabbed browsing I find extremely useful

I don't see much difference between the two implementations if you just use MDI in tabbed browsing mode. But of course, you do see a difference (unless you're talking about Opera 6).

I don't need windows that can be restored blah blah.. if I want windows with the dressing what's wrong with using real ones?

Well, here I go again. MDI windows are faster to manipulate than real ones. They don't take up taskbar space. They take up less resources. Restored MDI windows have less chrome. The list goes on. If you don't need them, then somebody else probably does.

Unfortunately they haven't fixed the memory leaks introduced in 6.05.

On the MDI vs tabbed mode browsing, come on I have a 19" monitor and I can't have tabs on the left and you think this interface is better?

"Sadly I find Opera 7 to be bugged."

Why do I get the feeling that you're crying crocodile tears here?

"I also find it slower than IE6."

I'll bet that you were smirking like a mischievous little troll when you wrote that, because it's the exact opposite IMOE.

Far from it. I welcome any new browser. Each one has its benefits. I'm merely stating my opinion.

"What happened to the anti-flicker mode too? (Where a window isn't cleared before moving pages.)"

?

It was there in Opera 6. Pages with identical menus were never blanked, they appeared to be drawn on top. I remember the option in the Preferences. Opera 7 seems to supress blanking the page if the same page elements are in the cache. Maybe.

BTW, Mozilla has CSS bugs too, ya' know...

I know! I'm not saying that's the perfect browser! Each have their own quirks.

"Tests I will publish soon show it cannot handle several commands."

I look forward to the day you'll reveal to us what these "commands" are.

I'd like to invite you to read my whole Opera 7 review before anyone else, to iron out any BS I might have in there. Can you let me have your email address? Mine is c.hester @ ukonline.co.uk. Regarding CSS, I've listed approximately 25 commands it fails on. OK, so they're not critical ones. I admit though it handles more code than the other browsers. My beef is that no browser supports 100%.

Seems to me that you haven't used Opera much;

That's correct. I use IE6 at work but prefer Mozilla 1 at home. I've actually been salivating over the release of Opera 7, which I rushed to download as soon as it was announced. However, I had to uninstall Opera 6 because it simply could not handle all the pages IE6 could. No amount of cool features will make up for not being able to surf freely.

I'd now swap from Mozilla to Opera 7 if it wasn't for the bugs I have problems with. Certainly I'll be using it to test my pages.

"They don't even seem to have fixed all the DHTML problems judging by one site (that works in IE). Unless the site had bad code of course, plus the browser is too new to be 'sniffed' for."

Riiight... And you have obviously made some extensive testing there. ("One site", he says.) But why not provide us with an URL, so we can check it out?

My bad. I should do more testing. I'd give you the URL but I can't recall the site (and I cleaned out the History).

"There is also talk on forums of Java problems."

Being specific is not one of your strongest features, is it?

The forum post did not give any specifics.

"I prefer Mozilla. It seems more usable, less buggy somehow."

Hate to break it to you, but it was painfully obvious that you preferred Mozilla from the get-go. I could be wrong, but you appear to be one of those Mozilla zealots that probably provoked poor Kevin to write this highly opinionated and deliberately provocative article in the first place.I have, like Kevin, grown tired of the Mozilla zealots. Just look how the Mozilla community reacted to Apples choice of KHTML! I don't think I have ever seen that much mudslinging online. They must feel really threatened by other "alternative" browsers...

Wrong. I am not going to say Mozilla rules over all other browsers. I want to love Opera too. Plus I look forward (this is not a joke) to the release of IE7.

However, this is not exactly a show-stopper and it should take less than a second to fix by someone like you, who clearly has a black belt in CSS code-fu. ;-)

Where on earth did you get that impression from? Did I ever say "If only I'd written the CSS"?

"But at the end of the day, it's the user who chooses"

It certainly is, but why is it that Mozilla users seem to have a particular hard time accepting that?

And why is that Opera users cannot accept criticism of their "golden" browser? And why do they have such a venomous outlook on Mozilla users?

Thanks for the article, it prompted me to download it and I'm only marginally disappointed (because they didn't include a default bookmark for a site I showed them about a year ago which they said they'd add). Some of the touches are smart; of all the gizmos and features I like the "magnification" feature the best, especially when it comes to developing pixel-precise web pages.

"It was there in Opera 6. Pages with identical menus were never blanked, they appeared to be drawn on top. I remember the option in the Preferences. Opera 7 seems to supress blanking the page if the same page elements are in the cache. Maybe."

I still have no idea what you're referring to.

"I'd like to invite you to read my whole Opera 7 review before anyone else, to iron out any BS I might have in there. Can you let me have your email address? Mine is c.hester @ ukonline.co.uk. Regarding CSS, I've listed approximately 25 commands it fails on."

TNX, but I don't have time to "baby-sit" you. However, if you think you've found a CSS bug, please make a minimal test case and post in Opera's newsgroup or sign up for the mailing list, just like everybody else who are truly interested in improving standards support in browsers. I can almost guarantee you will get constructive criticism and feedback.

"OK, so they're not critical ones. I admit though it handles more code than the other browsers."

...and yet you feel compelled to write "[Mozilla seems] less buggy somehow." Funny, that.

"My beef is that no browser supports 100%."

Even if a browser has 100 % support of CSS2.1, there will always be bugs. Presto's CSS is not overall buggier than any other browser, IMOE.

"However, I had to uninstall Opera 6 because it simply could not handle all the pages IE6 could. No amount of cool features will make up for not being able to surf freely."

True, Opera 6 wasn't very good at handling badly coded pages and non-standard junk. But Presto appears to handle the "real world" to a much larger extent than its predecessor.

"Certainly I'll be using it to test my pages."

Nice to hear.

"The forum post did not give any specifics."

Then why pass it on? It makes you look like someone who's only out to discredit Opera for no good reason at all.

"Where on earth did you get that impression from? Did I ever say 'If only I'd written the CSS'?"

No, but you have found 25 "commands" Opera 7 fails on, haven't you? If you really are CSS literate, it shouldn't be overly difficult for you to edit "Textonly.css" to hide the Flash animations. I believe that is the purpose of user style sheets.

"And why is that Opera users cannot accept criticism of their 'golden' browser?"

I don't believe Opera users have a hard time accepting just criticism. But untruths, obscurities and unfounded criticism should be challenged, IMO.

"And why do they have such a venomous outlook on Mozilla users?"

Maybe it's an emotional disorder caused by reading too many untruths, obscurities and unfounded criticism about Opera -- authored by Mozilla zealots. I sure as hell have seen that all too often.

"It was there in Opera 6. Pages with identical menus were never blanked, they appeared to be drawn on top. I remember the option in the Preferences. Opera 7 seems to supress blanking the page if the same page elements are in the cache. Maybe."

I still have no idea what you're referring to.

And you call yourself an Opera veteran? Can someone with Opera 6 please confirm this one?

"I'd like to invite you to read my whole Opera 7 review before anyone else, to iron out any BS I might have in there."

TNX, but I don't have time to "baby-sit" you.

I wasn't asking you to. I was hoping you'd use your fuller knowledge of Opera to spot any wrong conclusions I'd jumped to. (You seem to be good at that.) Oh well.

"OK, so they're not critical ones. I admit though it handles more code than the other browsers."

...and yet you feel compelled to write "[Mozilla seems] less buggy somehow." Funny, that.

Less buggy as in program bugs, not just CSS bugs!

Presto's CSS is not overall buggier than any other browser, IMOE.

If anything, it's less buggy. Last night I couldn't get Mozilla to recognise a stylesheet no matter what I did. In the end I had to copy a similar file. Yet the code was exact! Today I find IE6 playing up again at work, not loading images or styles for no reason. So I turned to Opera, only to find javascript not working on a page I needed. Stupid browsers!

"The forum post did not give any specifics."

Then why pass it on? It makes you look like someone who's only out to discredit Opera for no good reason at all.

If there's a problem with Java, I think people really ought to hear about it. I don't want a faulty browser.

If you really are CSS literate, it shouldn't be overly difficult for you to edit "Textonly.css" to hide the Flash animations. I believe that is the purpose of user style sheets.

Are you seriously suggesting a user has to hack the browser just to make it work properly???

It is quite normal for power users to edit and create their own user style sheets, so I don't understand why you find this so egregiously bad.

Because they shouldn't have to! The browser should work "as is". You don't buy a car only to find you have to delve into the engine before it's roadworthy.

It's the principle of the matter Kalas. I don't really care if Flash is let in or not, again it came from another user's observation. And I'm at home with hacking stylesheets. (All praise the ease of Mozilla's templates!) But to expect a non-power user to do this is surely too much.

You have obviously gone through Opera's display engine very thouroughly, Xanadu!

Some points:

• about F11 losing styles, that is because it uses the CSS2 media "presentation", so that you can use it for a presentation (OperaShow). It does not apply "screen" styles.
• I don't think mouse gestures have changed at all, except maybe for a few new ones?
• "The 'Links' menu misses off items on a page!" The Links hotlist item does not list duplicate URLs. This includes #links, which might be considered a bug.
• "PDFs don't open in the browser! You can probably change this, but why don't they open in Opera by default?" I'm guessing user request. Yes, you can change it, but not easily (Prefs > File Types).
• Opera identifies as IE by default so that pages let the browser in. It does, after all, have 1% market share. The User-Agent string still includes "Opera", so you can tell them apart.
• "Other browsers allow you to navigate the links on a page using the TAB key." Tab is used by OSes and Opera to navigate between form elements, not links. In Opera, the equivalent key is Q and A, or Ctrl-Up and Ctrl-Down. Or use Spatial Navigation (Shift-Arrows).

The rest of those points can be classed as "bugs", "issues", or "annoyances".

OK, fair enough.

To clarify my comment, the bug was the underlining, the spec discrepency was the title/date thing, and the unreproducable one was the negative text-indents on li's.

"It was there in Opera 6. Pages with identical menus were never blanked, they appeared to be drawn on top. I remember the option in the Preferences. Opera 7 seems to supress blanking the page if the same page elements are in the cache. Maybe." I still have no idea what you're referring to.

And you call yourself an Opera veteran? Can someone with Opera 6 please confirm this one?

The Opera6 feature you are reffering to is called 'Avoid Flicker'. It is not an option in Opera7. Whether this means it does not exist, or it does exist but can not be turned off I do not know. I wonder if it is relevant if opera is told to reload the documents and images anyways?

Hi,

I'm a Mozilla user and contributor, but pleeeeeaaaase, let's stop this war between Opera and Mozilla. Of course Opera has bugs. of course Mozilla has some. but both are much better than the beast from Redmond. And there is room for all of them. I do not believe in "one-size-fits-all" approach. The more browsers available the better (as soon as their are standards-compliant like Moz and Opera 7).

Some people will prefer Opera7, some will go for Mozilla, some will like Netscape7 because it includes plugins and AOL Mail access. Let them try all the browsers, let them choose their preferred browser....

...and spend your energy convincing web developers to create sites that render well in all browsers, using W3C standards.

All the rest is worthless.

--Tristan

That must have been painful going to the Mozilla site! Invading enemy lines there. Anyone have a list of the bugs in IE6?

Nitot is right. There are different browsers for different folks. I've found a browser that's even faster than Opera! It's..... Netscape 4! (I only use it to test my pages. Honest.)

Or use Opera 7 with the text-only emulator stylesheet!

Whoever says Opera has near complete DOM2 support is lying. It is certainly better than what IE has to offer (none - excluding whatever DOM1 Core carried over), but it is severely lacking. No DOM2 Range, Traversal, Stylesheets, or CSS. (Well, it doesn't support a Stylesheet object from DOM2 CSS - which means no manipulation of rules 'ed in - or @import()'ed, or <?xml-stylesheet?>'ed in - , which makes the advantages of DOM2 CSS useless relative to what they already had) I'd say that is a pretty significant hole. Not that Mozilla implements those entirely either - it is missing NodeIterator from Traversal, and the OverrideStyleSheet from CSS, but it does implement the rest of those interfaces adequately.

"it'd be nice to have some basic functionality like remembering passwords."

I believe that is what the Magic Wand is for. From the Opera website:

The Wand password manager
Opera now offers one-click log-in to password protected sites. Log-in fields with available passwords are marked with a slick golden rim, and access provided by simply clicking the Wand icon or the keyboard shorcut

I use Opera 6.05 and dont mind it for some types of surfing (some of the more important websites totally block Opera -- and there ARE a lot of things that dont work on opera, including a bunch of DHTML that works flawlessly in Mozilla/Gecko and IE).

My questions:

1. I have a huge pile of sites to block in my lmhosts. Opera is the only browser that pops up a highly annoying pop-up dialog EVERY TIME telling me that the site "doubleclick.com" etc could not be contacted, "Connection closed by remote server". How do I disable this irritiating behavior? I *know* that these sites cannot be contacted because I have disabled them myself!

2. How can I download Opera 7 and install it WITHOUT losing my current look and feel in Opera 6.05 -- which of course I have spent several hours on? Can I "upgrade" my browser? Tried the 7 itself and the look and feel is this grotesquely overdone with all those foreground skins and misplaced font sizes..

Thanks.

Hi Hyphen, thanks for the lmhosts tip. As for the skins, I did try downloading simpler ones but opera 7 just cannot ve made to look as simple as my current 6.05. It does follow a totally new layout..